Hawko
From HTB
Most music in churches is pretty lame. Don't get me wrong, I'm a fan of praise and worship music, I love church and corporate worship, however I'm not a fan of poor craftsmanship, and music that poorly reflects God's creativity. Now, you find bad music outside of church too, but it seems as though it's outside the church is where you'll find good music and most of the serious musicians. Why is that? I've been thinking about how a Church music teams work, the usual model is as follows. A worship leader is appointed by church leaders with a mandate to provide music for church services, build a team, create rosters for musicians etc. it's the usual format that most churches utilise. So the music director recruits a band, with some good musicians, some lazy ones, and some inexperienced ones, organises rehearsals to get everyone up to some acceptable standard, and then rosters the different musicians so that not all the lazy and inexperienced guys are on at once. All that work, all those headaches, and all that organising usually produces substandard results. Heres my point, this is not how real bands work... you know what I mean by real bands right, you may have been in one once. A couple of guys or gals who know each other and play music get inspired to start jamming together, they have some synergy and realise that they need some more musicians, so they ask around and find some other musicians to jam with, maybe they have to try a couple of different drummers out but eventually the group finds themselves forming as a band. They practice hard, argue, have some laughs, and work out the music. Sometimes this process fails to create anything truly noteworthy, but occasionally it creates a band that produces beautiful, interesting, creative, inspiring music. To be honest I've never found church leadership to be particularly supportive of this process.
So, I wonder if any church out there has tried to foster the development of worship bands that operate more like an actual band as opposed to a worship team. Any thoughts on how this idea might work? I'd love to hear your thoughts.
Hey HAWKO,
I've pondered those same things too. Its been kind of discussed in this forum from time to time too.
Here are some realizations I have had that help. First you have to define your terms. What do you mean by "music" and "worship music". I don't mean to say you haven't defined terms, but, for me, when asking this question I have to often step back and consder what it is I'm talking about.
I think the critical difference between "Worship Music" & "Music" is worship music surrenders some of its creative license in order to serve the liturgy. This concept is something I have wrestled with quite a bit. But, I have come to peace with it because form has to fit function. The function of music is artistic expression, so the form is fluid. The function of worship music is to communicate a specific truth via music, so the form is more static.
I know you could argue one type, or form form of worship music is effective over another, but you can't argue the function of worship music.
I think that distinction between worship music and music is quite important. Though it cannot be an excuse for being lazy, or creating terrible music, it does explain some of the challenges unique to the worship musician. Namely that you as a songwriter/musician surrender some of your creative license in order to serve the liturgy. What does "laying down creative license" mean? I'm not entirely sure I've got a good answer. But I do think it explains some of the discrepancy we observe between music and worship music.
In Christ, we push towards excellence in faith not works. I think that ideology applies into worship music too. Not to excuse laziness, but it does change how we approach the whole system of music.
For the record, I agree with you... I don't like most worship music these days, and I often struggle to appreciate any musical quality in the Sunday service at my church. So I'm not arguing the whole landscape of worship music is awesome. Because of my own struggle I've had to really process my own issues to keep from completely disengaging the whole system.
Mr Hatch, is there no path you can take within your Hillsong Church? As they have such a huge music programme there must be some avenue for you? At least we have an online community where we can share ideas, encourage etc. Maybe we should have a prayer list online?
hi guys,
interesting topic here, and one to be honest that seems to crop up on this board every few months or so.
mr hatch you said, 'most church leaders do not have a heart for musical worship, they have more of a heart for worship being a lifestyle', firstly, i think you need to be careful about making sweeping statements, how many church leaders do you know? secondly, i hope they do have a heart for worship being a lifestyle and not just musical seeing as thats what true worship is.
hawko, i hear your frustrations, my challenge to all of us is are we part of the solution or part of the problem?
its very very easy to criticise something. its much harder to do it better. in my experience there are plenty of worshp leaders passionate about God and worshipping him through music. can we do more? of course.
the funny thing is, even the best band in the world will never be worthy enough to reach the standards God deserves, the bible says even our best is filthy rags.
however yes, we need to push ourselves further. but music in church is only one thing that happens. how passionate are we to give our all to serve the poor? or fight against injustice? theres no point having brilliant music and GOd not listening to it as our hearts are not right (ie Amos 5).
and as for someone who has been in secular bands and chuirch bands, the 2 are completely different. normally a secular band only knows a handful of songs, and church bands have a huge repetoire. secular bands are there to perform not lead worship.
but im passionate about both types! esp about taking worship music into secular venues.
God bless,
gav.
In our Church we are expected to LIVE a life of worship to lead worship, they jsut have to go hand in hand. i think we all know that. Some Churches however do put more emphasis on the music side, and muscial excellence etc, which I think is what this topic is reaching for?
We have 4 congregations, each one has a local Church band, we play together every week, so are growing together musically, but as we serve in other areas of our church, our worship life blossoms too. We also have a "UNITE" band, made up of the 4 congregations musicians, we practice hard when we have a UNITE service, we strive to honour God with our best, but leading worshipful lives is still priority. We are doing a series in church called "WEIRD", how normal isn't working and we are called to be weird. We are not a secular band, playing secular music for our own glory.
We serve, we play for God's glory, we strive for excellence to honor Him, and try not to get in the way of congragational worship, the Holy spirit, we hope, is our worship leader. We try and make room for Him.
So, there's a mix of "normal" band culture, practising, keeping the same guys/girls together so we can grow musically and spiritually, but being weird at the same time.
Each Church has its own journey, its own strengths, musical worship to some is a core activity to promote, to others it may be a bind, lack of musicians, talent etc. Use what you've got, pray for what you need. :)
Gavin
i have spoken to quite a few church leaders over the years in the london, bristol and portsmouth areas.
plus i have looked at hundreds and thousands of ministry pages over the years, i know i shouldnt of used the word most.
i have changed it.
hi mr hatch,
its fine for you to have opinions, but be careful when you say things as if they are facts, like:
"most worship leaders and worship teams are not passionate about praise and worship music"
"most" would apply to me, and i feel im really passionate about it and feel many others are also.
lets be positive about improving things.
i wish you all the best in your ministry, have you tried speaking to worship leaders/pastors in your church for direction?
God bless,
gav.
I think these type of questions often raise interesting perspectives and viewpoints of the posters.... ;)
Ultimately there needs to be cultivation, over time, of musicians and worshippers establishing a culture of worship (in the broadest sense). It's a complex relationship between every worship team member with God at the centre. I think what can be frustrating is that it can take a long period of time and is dependent on many factors, including the pool of volunteers. As Gavin points out, are we 'can do' people and part of the solution, or are we 'moaning minnies' content with being part of the problem?
Because churches are gatherings of people, a worship culture will be specific to that church and the backgrounds of its members and traditions. Therefore the 'solution' or change that needs to occur, whatever that may be, lies within the context of the local church and the relationships within it. If worship is to be the agent of transformation, changing attitudes and our routine behaviours, then we need also to evaluate our own roles.
In the context of my role as a worship leader, I try and work with the same group of musicians to develop musical and personal relationships. Worship leading is ultimately about communication, fostering and using musical and worshipping talents. If the team I lead are worshipping God through their playing, that is one goal that is achieved?
One of the problems with the church currently, certainly in the UK, is that increasingly people are talking about worship when what they actually mean is sung worship, which is only a portion of gathered worship time, which is a very small fraction of the total time we have available to worship.
I think the role of music in the church in general is in danger of being elevated to a place beyond that which it deserves. Yes, it can be powerful, and yes we should be creative. But the more resources a church commits to improving the quality of its sung worship, the less resources it may have to pursuing all the other aspects of what it means to be church. The more we place worship leaders on a pedestal, often the less we empower the church congregation as a whole to find its voice in worship.
Increasingly the "worship leaders" I'm inspired by don't play guitar or music of any kind - they get on with their lives making often unoticed but costly decisions to publicly follow Jesus in the home, neighbourhood and workplace.
Hawko, at your church, how does the quality of the musicianship compare to the quality of the preaching/discipleship/evangelism/community/social care/etc? How do you think a church should prioritise those aspects of its ministry?
Paul: "increasingly people are talking about worship when what they actually mean is sung worship" Agreed, I've taken to tagging it as "Musical Worship" these days. It is worth separating the definition to avoid rendering our understanding of worship meaningless. I read a great quote and I've tried hard to find it again with no luck. The person was a worship pastor who said he studied musical worship in the bible only to discover he was "studying himself out of a job". In other words, he found musical worship is indeed a minimal part of this whole system of Christian faith.
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the answer to your question is, most worship leaders and worship teams are not passionate about praise and worship music.
its just a sunday service thing, most musicians who are in worship teams in churches are in their own secular bands in the week.
that says it all really dosent it.
mike pilavachi had a heart to raise up young emerging worship leaders, les moir wanted to record young emerging worship leaders.
thats is how matt redman tim hughes ben cantelon and martyn layzell came about.
hillsong where i am based have a heart for worship, thats why they release albums year in year out.
the same as passion, jesus cultre, bethel music, soul survivor etc.
many church leaders do not have a heart for musical worship, they have more of a heart for worship being a lifestyle.
because to make musical worship more a evangelism thing, and not just a church thing.
you need to have
a people who believe in you
b people who will inverst in you that could be either prayer of finance.
c people who are will get behind you
i have a heart for this kind of worship but i cannot find a outlet or a avenue to outwork it.
i dont have the finances to pay musicians, and i cant find any musicians to be in relationship and friendship with.